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Daniel
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Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Location: Sonoma, CA |
40.  Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:27 am Post subject: |
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aku!:Have you ever thought that maybe a population of dedicated players who compete in a certain game is what makes a sport a sport? Yes I took the RPS article with a grain of salt, however I think the point the author was trying to make was that once multiple people dedicate themselves to the game and they create organizations to help one other to get better; the game becomes a sport. DDR being a sport in Norway pretty much proves it. Spare me the we're not in Norway argument. If DDR was a sport in the US, we'd all call it a sport as if the US holds a universal opinion everybody agress with it. And don't just stop at Norway, look at Japan where there are a lot more accomplished players.
| aku! wrote: | In The Groove is not Dance Dance Revolution. It is something made by some guys who, for some mysterious reason, have not been sued by Konami yet(unless they have been sued, I'm not certain). Therefore, it does not help out the DDR series at all.
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Brilliant tactic trying to dodge my image link. You completely avoided such an obvious point. Sure I agree that ITG is not made by Konami, but there is something about ITG that is similar to DDR. In fact...
DDR and ITG are the exact same game.
It doesn't matter if ITG is made by Konami or not. The fact that other people are creating the exact same thing as DDR almost proves right there that DDR is a sport. The lawsuit argument proves nothing and once again dodges the obvious point. The fact remains that other people are building what is really the same thing as DDR.
I know that some people have used the exercise argument, but it really doesn't matter considering how IIDX is effectively a sport. It has a big following, and there are boundries still being conquered to this day. Yet IIDX provides no workout whatsoever. The exercise argument simply doesn't take into account of how challenging a game is, and how much dedication is required.
BTW: I have no problem with calling Pump It Up a sport. PIU does have a fanbase of dedicated players. PIU can be harder than DDR in some ways.
Mocap Boxing I don't consider a sport, because nobody plays it seriously. |
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Johnny Rainbow
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: Fukuoka, Japan |
| 41. Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel wrote: | | aku!:Have you ever thought that maybe a population of dedicated players who compete in a certain game is what makes a sport a sport? Yes I took the RPS article with a grain of salt, however I think the point the author was trying to make was that once multiple people dedicate themselves to the game and they create organizations to help one other to get better; the game becomes a sport. |
They do the same thing for fighting games as well, though. I've seen people create teams of their own for fighters(Team Arcadia, Team Old School, and so forth), but they still treat fighting games as just something to do in their spare time. In my opinion, people who want to treat the game as a sport still don't realize the point that DDR is just a videogame with a different method of playing other than a joystick and buttons. That's all.
| Quote: | | DDR being a sport in Norway pretty much proves it. Spare me the we're not in Norway argument. If DDR was a sport in the US, we'd all call it a sport as if the US holds a universal opinion everybody agress with it. And don't just stop at Norway, look at Japan where there are a lot more accomplished players. |
See, you just nailed the coffin on your own argument. DDR ISN'T a sport in the US. If anything, it's considered as "just another way to lose weight" in the US. It's just another exercise fad. People in the US aren't considering it to be a sport, because the majority still don't even know how this game would be played competitively. I doubt that they would even care. It's been, what, practically four or five years since the US has had this game. If people still can't get the concept, then fat chance that people are going to treat this game as a sport.
| Quote: | | aku! wrote: | In The Groove is not Dance Dance Revolution. It is something made by some guys who, for some mysterious reason, have not been sued by Konami yet(unless they have been sued, I'm not certain). Therefore, it does not help out the DDR series at all.
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Brilliant tactic trying to dodge my image link. |
....umm.....I mentioned In The Groove. What makes you think I dodged it?
| Quote: | You completely avoided such an obvious point. Sure I agree that ITG is not made by Konami, but there is something about ITG that is similar to DDR. In fact...
DDR and ITG are the exact same game. |
The main type of gameplay is exactly the same, yes, but they are both different games because they are both made by different people and different companies. Take a look at EZ2DJ and Beatmania III. They both have the same layout: disc, five keys and a foot pedal. But they are still both different games. While it's true that it's easier to differentiate between BMIII and EZ2DJ, the point I'm making is that just because two games appear exactly the same, if ITG isn't made by Konami, then it isn't the same game as DDR.
| Quote: | | It doesn't matter if ITG is made by Konami or not. The fact that other people are creating the exact same thing as DDR almost proves right there that DDR is a sport. The lawsuit argument proves nothing and once again dodges the obvious point. The fact remains that other people are building what is really the same thing as DDR. |
The ONLY thing you proved me wrong about was that DDR is not a dying franchise in America. You still haven't proven if DDR is a sport, because all you did is point out what I said in bold. ITG is basically a game where they took the idea and gameplay of DDR and then stuffed new songs and called it their own game. People have done the same tactics. Look at all the fighting games in the 90s. It's just another tactic for videogame companies to compete against their rivals(not trying to say that whatever company ITG is from is trying to rival against Konami, but I'm saying that making a variation of something isn't a sport, but just a marketing plan).
| Quote: | | I know that some people have used the exercise argument, but it really doesn't matter considering how IIDX is effectively a sport. It has a big following, and there are boundries still being conquered to this day. Yet IIDX provides no workout whatsoever. The exercise argument simply doesn't take into account of how challenging a game is, and how much dedication is required. |
......wait a second.
Are you saying that IIDX is a sport, too?
..........
I don't even have to say anything about that. *snicker*
| Quote: | | BTW: I have no problem with calling Pump It Up a sport. PIU does have a fanbase of dedicated players. PIU can be harder than DDR in some ways. |
See, I'll bet that if I didn't say anything, then nobody would've ever mentioned Pump as being a sport.
| Quote: | | Mocap Boxing I don't consider a sport, because nobody plays it seriously. |
The thing is that there aren't enough people who play DDR seriously to call DDR a sport as well. Just because one country calls it one, that doesn't mean everybody else will. One country out of hundreds or thousands is still considered pretty small.
The point I'm making is that just because there are a compareably SMALL group of people totally dedicated to a game, that doesn't make it a sport. If it was the case, then we would've seen Super Smash Brothers Melee as a sport a while ago.
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Ryu_Hirakashi
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: Middle River, MD |
| 42. Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:37 am Post subject: |
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So after some dedicated thinking of my own I must conclude that.....
a. in order for anything to become a sport then it must have a dedicated following.
b. It must stratigecally challening
c. Now this is under debate but it may or may not provide a strainious workout.
Now I ask everyone in this thread, who has the power to make this decision? Could it be some conglomerate or mearly a board of inqury?
Second why are the current sports considered sports?
I mean I'm no expert on this subject but anything can be made into a sport so long as it provides a perpectual challenge. Including Video Games.
So I really consider this more of a question of ethics. Why does Basketball or Baseball have more of right to be a sport then say ballroom dancing or Arm Wrestling?
I know that I'm just merely asking questions, but I'm hoping that these questions will get you guy to realise that there are no boundries on this subject. All one has to be is open-minded.
So consider this a neutral stance on this debate.
Hirakashi Ryu
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| Quote: | | For a beginner, if learning how to play pop'n music is like a parent holding his / her child's hand while crossing a busty street, then learning to play IIDX is like being kicked out of a moving car in the middle of nowhere and having to scrape enough money for a taxi cab ride home. |
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Daniel
Trick Member
Joined: 29 Aug 2002
Location: Sonoma, CA |
| 43. Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| aku! wrote: | | Daniel wrote: | | aku!:Have you ever thought that maybe a population of dedicated players who compete in a certain game is what makes a sport a sport? Yes I took the RPS article with a grain of salt, however I think the point the author was trying to make was that once multiple people dedicate themselves to the game and they create organizations to help one other to get better; the game becomes a sport. |
They do the same thing for fighting games as well, though. I've seen people create teams of their own for fighters(Team Arcadia, Team Old School, and so forth), but they still treat fighting games as just something to do in their spare time. In my opinion, people who want to treat the game as a sport still don't realize the point that DDR is just a videogame with a different method of playing other than a joystick and buttons. That's all. |
That's exactly why I didn't used to take fighting games seriously. Fighting game players do take their games seriously, but they still say "it's just a game". This is a very negative trend in our society. Fighting games are becoming increasingly difficult yet we Americans still have this "it's just a game" mentality. A good example of the consequences of this is the fact that millions of copies of Mortal Kombat: Deception are being sold yet Guilty Gear XX#Reload doesn't even have an official US arcade release.
I have noticed how good players of fighting games themselves repeat the "it's just game" mentality. Even some of the better players can't face the social stigma of taking certain video games as seriously as a sport. They aren't stupid, but they just don't have the guts. I don't blame you for allowing the "it's just game" mentality rub off on you, because you have good sources of information to back that up. However what I see happening is that the "it's just game" mentality is causing us to shy away from difficult challenges hence why there are very few American Guilty Gear players. It also explains the lack of Beatmania players and players of other perpetually difficult games. Considering how chicken we Americans are when it comes to challenge we really have to throw the old attitude away. I think the first step is for the players to keep their head held up high and realize that a sport mentality is what it will take to not only be a good player but to continue being a good player.
| aku! wrote: |
| Quote: | | DDR being a sport in Norway pretty much proves it. Spare me the we're not in Norway argument. If DDR was a sport in the US, we'd all call it a sport as if the US holds a universal opinion everybody agress with it. And don't just stop at Norway, look at Japan where there are a lot more accomplished players. |
See, you just nailed the coffin on your own argument. DDR ISN'T a sport in the US. If anything, it's considered as "just another way to lose weight" in the US. It's just another exercise fad. People in the US aren't considering it to be a sport, because the majority still don't even know how this game would be played competitively. I doubt that they would even care. It's been, what, practically four or five years since the US has had this game. If people still can't get the concept, then fat chance that people are going to treat this game as a sport. |
Once again you dodged another point. I just wrote how the US does not hold a universally accepted opinion. If this is what I believe than why would I care if wether or not we Americans don't recognize the high levels of play within DDR?
| aku! wrote: | | Quote: |
DDR and ITG are the exact same game. |
The main type of gameplay is exactly the same, yes, but they are both different games because they are both made by different people and different companies. Take a look at EZ2DJ and Beatmania III. They both have the same layout: disc, five keys and a foot pedal. But they are still both different games. While it's true that it's easier to differentiate between BMIII and EZ2DJ, the point I'm making is that just because two games appear exactly the same, if ITG isn't made by Konami, then it isn't the same game as DDR. |
When I play ITG, the skills that I earned for DDR are carried over to ITG without any compromise whatsoever. Yes technically ITG is not the same game as DDR. If you really can't see my point though, I'm going to stop saying that ITG and DDR are sport. From this point on I will refer to 4 panel dancing as a sport.
| aku! wrote: |
People have done the same tactics. Look at all the fighting games in the 90s. It's just another tactic for videogame companies to compete against their rivals(not trying to say that whatever company ITG is from is trying to rival against Konami, but I'm saying that making a variation of something isn't a sport, but just a marketing plan). |
When I play a different fighting game, the skills I earned in 1 fighting game do not carry over to the other 100%. That is what makes ITG and DDR such a different case. ITG is actually designed to reward the skills you earned in DDR. The games are interchangeable. Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Kombat were in no way whatsoever interchangeable.
| aku! wrote: |
| Quote: | | I know that some people have used the exercise argument, but it really doesn't matter considering how IIDX is effectively a sport. It has a big following, and there are boundries still being conquered to this day. Yet IIDX provides no workout whatsoever. The exercise argument simply doesn't take into account of how challenging a game is, and how much dedication is required. |
......wait a second.
Are you saying that IIDX is a sport, too? |
Let's see you AAA Quasar. LOL!
| aku! wrote: |
| Quote: | | BTW: I have no problem with calling Pump It Up a sport. PIU does have a fanbase of dedicated players. PIU can be harder than DDR in some ways. |
See, I'll bet that if I didn't say anything, then nobody would've ever mentioned Pump as being a sport.
| Quote: | | Mocap Boxing I don't consider a sport, because nobody plays it seriously. |
The thing is that there aren't enough people who play DDR seriously to call DDR a sport as well. Just because one country calls it one, that doesn't mean everybody else will. One country out of hundreds or thousands is still considered pretty small.
The point I'm making is that just because there are a compareably SMALL group of people totally dedicated to a game, that doesn't make it a sport. If it was the case, then we would've seen Super Smash Brothers Melee as a sport a while ago. |
I really don't see any revelence with bringing up PIU. I consider IIDX support even though it has a smaller fanbase. I really don't see any revelence with bring up MoCap Boxing either. I used to be a big fan of that game and I have not met a single serious MoCap Boxing player in my life. As soon as I see at least one group dedicated to MoCap Boxing I will consider MoCap Boxing a sport. In fact this is precisely where we don't agree. You seam to think that in order for a sport to be considered a sport it has to be accepted almost world wide. If that is your opinion, fine. However I find the thought of you AAAing Quasar funny because you're openly taking on an attitude that is very afraid of challenge, yet you make it sound like you're the kind of person who will one day go on to AAA Quasar or take on any equally difficult challenge. The reason why competition is such a good idea is because it prevents people from being so overly opioniated that they put blinders on. If you currently play DDR, why don't you try playing Max 300 on heavy and imagine actually AAA that song? Sound impossible? Well it's been accomplished by players who had the right attitude.
BTW: Super Smash Brothers: Melee is a sport because it still has a following to this day. SSBM as played as a sport is usually played on the flat terrain with a set of tournament rules. If you weren't so hung up on the idea that video games could never be a sport, maybe you wouldn't be ignorant of console gatherings that do take SSBM seriously. Or maybe you will stop playing video games altogether because if you continue to tell yourself not to take video games seriously, you will suddenly realize that you must conclude that you are stupid for playing them. |
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uouuÉ
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Joined: 10 Jun 2004
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| 44. Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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why the hell is this thread still open?
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MPB3.Radio
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Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Location: P-Town |
| 45. Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| In the broad sense, yes. In a strict sense, no. |
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figgy20000
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Joined: 16 Feb 2004
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| 46. Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
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The difference between most video games and DDR is that most video games don't have a LARGE following, as well do not include physical exercise which is a requirement for the majority of sports that do exist. For example there are very few area around the US where people are setting up organized SSBM tournaments, and even if they were, it could never be a sport. First off Nintendo could just release another super smash brothers, and everyone would stop playing the origional as much. Uh-oh, there goes SSBM being a sport anymore.
DDR has a much larger fanbase, and will continue because future games based off 4-panel dance playing will be almost identical in almost every respect, as ITG already is, and will most likely not die when a new version gets released as many games do. You don't see as many people playing Soul Calibur now that Soul Calibur 2 is out now, do you?
The main problem with DDR being a sport is that the machines will eventually get old. If no one produces anymore, what will happen when they start to die out? There will be no way to play this "sport". As well, DDR in the general sense is considered a single player game, which is another large problem with it. Most tournaments consist of 2 people playing a single player game beside each other, making competition usually just a reason to hang out with other DDR players and see how well you do against them.
The fact that DDR is owned by a company squashes any chance of it being a sport anywhere in North America. Stuff like hockey, basketball, baseball, aren't owned by private companies. Video games, DDR? They are. That's the difference between DDR and other sports, regardless of their fanbases. |
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Johnny Rainbow
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: Fukuoka, Japan |
| 47. Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel wrote: |
That's exactly why I didn't used to take fighting games seriously. Fighting game players do take their games seriously, but they still say "it's just a game". This is a very negative trend in our society. |
.....no, I'd say that it's a POSITIVE trend, because at least they have their priorities straight. Even some of the most hardcore gamers know that you still need to put food on the table, so they put things like videogames second and everything needed to go through another day first.
| Quote: | | Fighting games are becoming increasingly difficult yet we Americans still have this "it's just a game" mentality. A good example of the consequences of this is the fact that millions of copies of Mortal Kombat: Deception are being sold yet Guilty Gear XX#Reload doesn't even have an official US arcade release. |
That's because of cultural differences. America believes that the arcade industry isn't doing well, and that the wave of the future is console/online console gaming. Not just that, but 2D fighters are, according to the companies, not selling as well as they'd like. While I think that it's bullshit for companies to have that mentality, I can't really blame them at the same time. I've heard more people around talk about Tekken and Soul Calibur and DoA than I did King of Fighters or even Street Fighter, which are talked about by die-hard fans of those games.
By the way, fighting games AREN'T becoming increasingly difficult. In a matter of a few months, I've basically figured out everything about GGXX and put up good fights with my Potemkin. In 3rd Strike, I figured out everything in a matter of months and put up good fights with my Hugo. Sure, we learned new tactics depending on the players we face, but you can't speak out for us when YOU call fighting games "increasingly difficult".
| Quote: | | I have noticed how good players of fighting games themselves repeat the "it's just game" mentality. Even some of the better players can't face the social stigma of taking certain video games as seriously as a sport. They aren't stupid, but they just don't have the guts. I don't blame you for allowing the "it's just game" mentality rub off on you, because you have good sources of information to back that up. |
Dude, GET OVER YOURSELF.
Do you want to know WHY people have that mentality? BECAUSE THEY DO REALIZE THAT IT'S JUST A GAME. THEY play for fun. THEY treat it as something to do in their spare time. The reason WHY they don't have "good sources of information" is because they don't waste their time trying to prove what type of mentality they have and they just play to have fun. But no. I guess YOU can't take that, and you want to decide to call people with "that mentality" "not having the guts to meet up to a bullshit standard that you want to follow".
| Quote: | | However what I see happening is that the "it's just game" mentality is causing us to shy away from difficult challenges hence why there are very few American Guilty Gear players. It also explains the lack of Beatmania players and players of other perpetually difficult games. Considering how chicken we Americans are when it comes to challenge we really have to throw the old attitude away. I think the first step is for the players to keep their head held up high and realize that a sport mentality is what it will take to not only be a good player but to continue being a good player. |
As of this moment, I just stopped caring, because I just realized that you're really bad at trying to prove yourself right.
Besides, I have to go to work anyway, BECAUSE I HAVE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO THAN THINK ABOUT WHETHER VIDEOGAMES COUNT AS SPORTS.
Seriously, mods, just lock this.
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IguanaGrrl
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Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA |
| 48. Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:41 am Post subject: |
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I think I'll echo what others have said...
WHO CARES?!
If you like it, play it. It shouldn't matter whether or not it is considered a sport, you're never going to see it in the olympics or anything, so GET OVER IT.
Locked for redundancy and pointlessness.
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